I approached him. Jacobs stood five-foot-something and wore glasses he seemed to peek over or under about as often as not. His white hair could reasonably have been considered to need a cut. He wore khaki pants accompanied by a worn and weathered old brown belt.
I introduced myself and explained I was the man who he agreed to provide a few minutes of time. I previously asked Jacobs via email if he would meet with me at the conference and allow me to ask him a few questions for a blog post, to which he cooperatively replied he would.
I introduced myself and explained I was the man who he agreed to provide a few minutes of time. I previously asked Jacobs via email if he would meet with me at the conference and allow me to ask him a few questions for a blog post, to which he cooperatively replied he would.
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| David Jacobs |
This is not, however, to imply I came to perceive Jacobs as particularly intellectually deficient or unusually challenged to persuade people to admire him. Not at all. As a matter of fact, and even with my admittedly predisposed negative opinion of his work, I found myself initially motivated to find him... likable. His abilities to win friends and influence people, so to speak, combined with his absentminded – even seemingly non-threatening – demeanor, offered me opportunities to consider how otherwise sensible individuals might find themselves rationalizing ways to accept his potentially dangerous fringe-research methodology and extraordinary claims.
During his public presentation, Jacobs quite effectively presented himself as a friendly - maybe even humble - man who never wanted to end up here, but this wacky UFO stuff left him no other choice but to accept the supposed reality of what he claimed is taking place. He framed himself as a victim of a stubborn scientific community that refuses to listen to him. He intermittently mumbled, cussed and made fun of himself during his Saturday night lecture.
“Damn,” he mumbled several times during his presentation, a reference to technological malfunctions and/or user errors he seemed to repeatedly experience while trying to operate electronic equipment.
“How many times can a person say damn in one life?” he then asked rhetorically, invoking waves of laughter from an audience apparently feeling increasingly both relieved and happy to be led to believe they should relate to the man. After all and as was the case with him, they did not understand how that equipment he was trying to use worked, either, and the scientific community refuses to listen to them, too.
At times he spoke rapidly, effectively measuring voice inflection as he employed long, run on sentences to metaphorically express the manic nature of alleged alien abduction and his claimed bewilderment with what his research supposedly revealed. Other times he more calmly presented the hundreds of attendees with third person, anonymous narration after narration of abductions, breeding programs and mind control – all committed by non-human beings... aliens and hybrids – but, mostly, he entertained the audience. They grew to like him. They liked the way he at least seemed to validate their personal notions, and they seemed to feel better about themselves while with him and listening to him.
In smaller groups of people, Jacobs was truly in his element. He was demonstrative and animated, yet at other times equally effective when soft spoken. He masterfully transferred emotion and motivated people, who clearly and quite willingly wanted to be motivated, to thoroughly consider and envision his described scenes and scenarios. They 'wanted to believe' and, in many circumstances, long had.
He would step forward among a group of a dozen or so conference attendees, as if taking a stage, wave his arms and confidently warn of an alien invasion, while followers huddled ever closer to hear supposed insider insights and cherished details. Then, periodically, he would ease the mounting tension he created, sighing softly about how frustratingly little we know as he lowered his head, timidly slumped his shoulders and took a step back.
Is there any validity to the work David Jacobs claims to conduct? Has science forsaken the man, as he suggested, or has he simply not provided the scientific community anything it can reasonably evaluate? These are the types of questions and related issues we will explore in this series of three posts, drawing upon the man's statements and using reviews from qualified experts as our guides. The previously published work of Susan Blackmore, Ted Goertzel and Stephanie Kelley-Romano will be cited. Recent comments generously provided to The UFO Trail by retired engineer Frank Purcell and microbiologist Dr. Tyler Kokjohn will be presented for consideration.
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| The vendor area at the Ozark UFO Conference |
I replied that all I wanted to use was a hand held audio recording device. He then asked if I had it with me, to which I informed him I could easily go get it.
“Let's talk,” he proposed.
The Interview
After retrieving my audio recorder I guided Dr. Jacobs to a room I noticed earlier that was adjacent to the larger vendor area. It was there that we pulled a couple of chairs together and proceeded to talk.
I noted how opportunities to test DNA are becoming increasingly available as large strides continue to be made in the evolution of sequencing technology. I asked if he found such evolving technology and related opportunities of interest.
“I am very, very interested in that,” Jacobs replied, explaining how his views of the kinds of research required to advance ufology have changed over the years. He described how when he was “just a UFO researcher” he thought astronomers and astrophysicists could be most helpful.
“Then when I became interested in the abduction phenomenon,” he continued, “and I began to do work in it, I thought that what we needed really was physiologists - and then gynecologists because of the reproductive quality of it. Now I think that what we need is neurologists.
“I think that's the most important thing we could possibly have is neurologists. However, what we also need is geneticists as well, people who can do DNA sequencing who can help us.”
Jacobs suggested “we,” a pronoun he consistently used to describe those who understand what he asserted to be “known” about topics alien and hybrid, have “learned more and more.” This, he declared, assists us in knowing where we should go from here.
“So, yes,” he answered as to whether or not he is interested in the evolving DNA sequencing technology. He added, however, that he sees many challenges, particularly with funding, stating, “DNA sequencing is not cheap, and looking for slight differences in DNA is not cheap.”
Jacobs indicated he is not optimistic that any significant advances in abduction research will be made in the near future, explaining, “I just think we're going to have to poke along as best we can and just try to figure out as much as we can, and eventually we're going to hit a wall. We're going to know as much as we can possibly know about the subject and after that it's going to have to be people with a lot of talent and a lot of knowledge, a lot of skills putting their heads together and trying to figure this thing out both scientifically, genetically and everything else. I don't know if that's going to happen in my lifetime.”
“Some that follow the field have been encouraged and optimistic about such websites as 23andMe,” I said. “That's a place that - starting at like nine dollars per month – one can send saliva and have it sequenced. Are you aware of the advances being made?”
“No, I'm not,” he replied. “I never heard of 23andMe. Thanks for telling me. I'll take a look at it.”
“Sure. The New York Times also recently ran an article on a company that for under $1000 does extensive sequencing. You're not aware of those kinds of advances?”
“No. I am aware that if you want to do professional sequencing looking for differences in DNA it can run up to three million dollars. This is something that I am aware of,” Jacobs explained, and went on to indicate he thought less than seven digits worth of sequencing may purchase little more than basic data.
“I think what they're just looking for in certain DNA sequencing,” Jacobs supposed, “for people like that is - I don't know what they're looking for. I don't know if they're looking for alien DNA or anything like that or if they're looking to see if there's something wrong with their fetus or if there's something wrong with them or if they have a certain chromosome that will yield Huntington's that killed Woody Guthrie and all that. So I'm not sure. I'd have to examine it more because most people when they also go for chromosomal sequencing they are looking for heredity – you know, where they come from. I've learned if you go back far enough, everybody's related to Queen Elizabeth.”
I stated, “A moment ago you mentioned it's difficult looking for slight DNA differences.”
“Yes.”
“What specifically leads you to believe there would not be large markers?”
“Because...” Jacobs began, thoughtfully paused a few seconds, and then continued, “now you're getting into the 'inside baseball' stuff. If you're dealing with alien DNA there's going to be huge markers. I don't even know if they have DNA; I can't tell you that for sure. So that's going to be almost impossible to get, unless you're in a situation where you can cut off one of their little fingers - but it's just not going to happen - but if you're interested in hybrid DNA, that's different.
“With hybrid DNA we have Bill Chalker writing a book in Australia called Hair of the Alien, and that's a hybrid hair. It's mitochondrial DNA and they can only find out certain things, although recently they made strides in sequencing mitochondrial DNA and they can find out more things now. When the book first came out all they could find out was heritage – the mother's heritage.
“What we need then is not just hybrid DNA but – and if you read my book The Threat, you realize I divided hybrids into early stage, middle stage and late stage for convenience sake, although it's a little more subtle than that, obviously – but now there is what I call human stage, who really look human; who are human except that they can do things that other hybrids and aliens can do and we can't. They can control people, and without that control obviously there would be no abduction phenomenon.
"At that point you're dealing with a human. This person is human in every way except for sleep cycle and the ability to control others."
“At that point you're dealing with a human. This person is human in every way except for sleep cycle and the ability to control others. Searching for that, which is basically a brain situation, it seems to me would be difficult. Now, I don't know, but it seems to me it would be.”
I asked, “Am I correct in my interpretation that you believe these hybrids will be released into the general population?”
“This is what abductees tell me, this is what abductees tell me. It's not something that I wanted to hear. It's not something that I led them into. In fact, I tried to lead them away from it but they won't have it. They know what they remember and they know what's going on with them, and these are people who have already passed all sorts of tests about whether they can be led or whether they're vulnerable or anything like that – and the hypnosis I do is extremely light. It's just relaxation techniques. I'm not a professional hypnotist, obviously, although I have trained a whole bunch of other people to do this kind of work. The fact is, though, that this is what they tell me.”
Jacobs claimed he is embarrassed to talk about such circumstances, adding that, as an academic, he “must go where the evidence leads” him. He claimed to believe it led him “into this embarrassing position.”
“Am I correct, with the name of the book being The Threat,” I asked, “that you suppose this is not for benevolent purposes as the alleged hybrids enter our domain?”
Jacobs explained the publisher, Simon and Schuster, selected the name of the book. He stated he was opposed to the title but eventually printing proceeded.
“However,” he went on, “I must say that over the years since The Threat came out, I have come to think that this is a threatening situation. I really look upon it as catastrophic, I must say, but not necessarily malevolence. They're not here to hurt us, I don't think. I don't really know, but I don't think. They're not here to, you know, stomp on Tokyo or destroy New York or something like that, so we really don't know.”
“Now,” Jacobs continued, “the question is if hybrids integrate into society, why? Why are they doing that? We do not know the answer to that question because they don't tell abductees, therefore we do not know. That is the last remaining question of huge magnitude that we don't know, I think.”
“Can you offer any comment on how they reproduce or its envisioned they reproduce?”
“You mean aliens or hybrids?” he asked.
“Either/or.”
“Okay, well, with aliens we do not know how they reproduce. There's no reproductive organs. When people say they've had sex with aliens, with grey aliens, it can't be true.
“They might be stamped out of a dye, they might be cloned, we really don't know how that happens. We don't know the behind the scenes aspect of that.
"With hybrids, we know the hybrids are made out of - when women describe eggs being taken, men describe the sperm being taken, and then they're - the fetus is put in a - you know, the egg is fertilized."
“With hybrids, we know the hybrids are made out of - when women describe eggs being taken, men describe the sperm being taken, and then they're - the fetus is put in a - you know, the egg is fertilized. Something happens then. Either DNA is added or something is altered which we don't know because we don't know any of this technological stuff. The fetus is reintroduced into the woman's uterus or other places in the woman's body near the uterus and between ten, eleven weeks, they're removed. It's a fetal implant, fetal extraction and this happens to virtually all women.
“Then they're sort of kept in tanks until they are – you can't use the word 'born' and you can't use the word 'hatched' - until they're taken out of the tanks.”
“...And you get this information...?”
“From abductees who see this. This is standard stuff. I literally have hundreds of cases of this. This is just primary stuff.
“Then you get some that look more alien, some that look in the middle, some that look more human in the spectrum, but as years have gone by we've seen more and more human - late stage ones as I call them. Now we're seeing human ones.”
Jacobs continued to describe the “human ones.”
“The human ones and the late stage ones, we think, reproduce normally. However, we don't know because we do not know if late stage or human hybrids and late stage males and females get together to produce a little bitty baby. We don't know that. My guess is they don't.
“My guess is they skip certain procedures and just impregnate a normal human female, and the fetus is taken out between nine and eleven weeks. So that's how they reproduce, but aliens, we don't have a clue. We are clueless about that, and you'd think after all these years of studying the subject, we'd know, but we don't because abductees don't. It's all behind the scenes stuff.”
We discussed further why Jacobs stated millions of dollars in funding is required to conduct DNA tests on individuals or items allegedly coming in contact with aliens or hybrids.
“The reason I say millions,” Jacobs said, “is because Lloyd Pye has this skull and he estimates it costs several million dollars to get the skull completely sequenced. That estimate apparently has been agreed upon by other people too.
“The point is that if somebody comes along and wants to do it, fine, then, you know. I have taken material for analysis to various DNA testing places. They had negative results. There wasn't enough of it or they couldn't tell what it was – that sort of thing.”
“Are these tests available for the public to review?”
“Not yet.”
“Will they be?”
“I don't know. One I did many years ago at a local lab in Delaware. Another one was done by American Testing Institute in New York City – American Chemical? I can't remember the name of it now. That was also many years ago – about brown stains that people have; that's routinely there.
“I had another one done for a TV show and they didn't know what the heck it was. They just sort of laughed about it and I got to look at those reports.
“Maybe one day I'll put them on the Internet. I don't know, but I'm still old school. It never occurs to me to put things on the Internet, but that's an idea 'cause they're just sitting in my files. But with this purity of DNA that comes directly from a hybrid, that would be another order of things.”
“Am I correct in my understanding,” I asked, “that Barbara Lamb claims to personally know a hybrid?”
“You're going to have to ask Barbara that. I don't know. I haven't talked to Barbara in a couple of years, actually.”
“What I'm getting at,” I explained, “again, is the possible opportunities to do some testing. It would seem like she would prioritize such a thing if she knew a hybrid... Am I correct that you understood hybrids to have sent you text messages and emails?”
“Yes, yes,” Jacobs said, “and that I will be writing a book about. Within context, you'll see the build up to it and how it's all logical; how this came about. Now, I can't tell whether it's a hoax or not. The only way whether I can tell if it's a hoax is by looking in this person's window while typing, instant messaging, and she lives 125 miles away from me – and I'd have to be typing the whole way and then looking in her window to see whether she's sitting there or some guy's sitting there, ya know what I mean?
“So, I don't know. All I know is that the woman I've known for 13 years and I still know her, and she's wonderful and she's great, and she's never ever, ever, ever lied to me in any conceivable way.”
“Is this the woman known as Elizabeth?”
“Yes.”
“Okay,” I began, “I can empathize with someone being 125 miles away... I can empathize with that -”
“You can't look in her windows anyway,” Jacobs interjected. “She sent me pictures of her room. There are curtains and the air conditioner and this and that and you can't even see inside.”
“...and can you empathize,” I continued and asked, “with people that might say if a camera or fingerprint stood between you and a Nobel, it seems like we could figure out how to get the goods on this hybrid?”
“It was much more difficult than you think. This was something that - we – it's much more easy – she wouldn't even remember what was happening until I'd talk with her the next day. By that time, there are no fingerprints. She's already - I'm just going to have to write this thing up and let people decide for themselves. I'll let people decide for themselves on this but, to me, it was typical hybrid discussion, having heard hundreds and hundreds of hybrid discussions from abductees – but I don't know, we'll see, we'll see.
“I'm not going to make any claims one way or the other. All I know is it's one of the scariest things that ever happened to me.”
As I began to ask another question, Jacobs requested I turn off the audio recorder. I complied. We then briefly discussed a couple more aspects of his research and career before concluding our interaction. I appreciate the time Dr. Jacobs offered me and his willingness to meet with me.
Concerns
Concerns
Having now conducted somewhat of an interview with Dr. Jacobs, attended his presentation at the Ozark UFO Conference, observed discussions in which he participated throughout the weekend of the conference, and reflected upon it all, I identify several concerns with his statements and suggested lines of reasoning. Among the first items I found worthy of calling into question was that, in so many words, Jacobs was seemingly suggesting it is relatively futile to try to obtain physical evidence of the beings conducting the abductions because the abductions are now being carried out by humans - manufactured by aliens, in what we are apparently led to believe are the results of some type of devious strategy. There seem to be a number of potentially mentally unhealthy and concerning aspects of entertaining such suggestions, but I will leave it at that for now.
Another item deserving much more clarification is the doctor's mention of undertaking previous DNA research. This is potentially significant for a number of reasons, including raising the issue of how Temple University defined the work conducted by Jacobs.
It is reasonable for the UFO community and academia to expect transparency concerning such activities, including clearly stated research objectives, methodologies and outcomes. These are circumstances legitimately deserving further clarification and are universally recognized as such among professional researchers of any discipline.
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